Another thing that's being over looked is the regeneration rates of both hull and shield points.  Personally I've always felt that the Vasari caps were built with more of a focus for survival over damage dealing (which fits along with the whole fleeing forces over reigning rulers sort of thing).  But the Vasari as a whole have a generally higher hp regen rate then TEC or Advent, which does make them harder to down.  (And man have I seen them survive some insane amounts of focus fire before..)  While the Advent may have lower hull points, they've much higher shields and shield regen.  And shields generally fluctuate a lot faster then hull points too, so it still keeps them in relative balance with the rest.

  Oh, and the Revelation fires forward, at very least!  I forget if it has any side or rear facing guns, actually, I don't watch it very much.  It's an ugly shoe with an antenna, and I just enjoy watching the Radiance a WHOLE lot more.  THAT one is a pretty ship.  Heh.  BUT, the Revelation's Reverie ability is of great use stopping fleeing ships of import (typically capitals, obviously), even if it is unfortunately single target only.

[quote="The_Regicide"]Why does a purely support vessel need abilities that deal damage? It's abilities are probably the best fleet-supporting abilities in the game! Seriously, Phase Out? Fleet-wide speed boosts!?[/quote]

it doesn't need abilities that deal damage. its needs guns that deal damage. maybe not as much as a battleship or dreadnaught, but certainly alot more than it does now which is pathetic. 

also, i know its just a matter of opinion, but i don't think its abilities are that great to be perfect honest. Phase Out Hull is alright but i'd prefer Reverie or Ion Bolt to it. Distort Gravity doesn't excite me much at all because it mostly helps you run away. i prefer to win fights more easily not flee fights more easily. the commando team ability totally sucks, not even in the same league as Embargo. 

the best feature of the Antorak is Stabilize Phase Space, which is legitimately very good. however, that role has now been replaced by the Orkulas which can be built at any system and then build a Phase Node as one of its ugrade slots. 

Before I see anymore phase missile arguments can I just mention that most Vasari caps don't have a high percentage of phase missile damage, it's only the Desolator that phase missile tech significantly effects.

This sort of thing is why I'd like to see an interface that actually presents more information about weapon facing, ranges and lethality, than just a generic circle (presumably corresponding to maximum range?) and 'average damage for <blah>' without specifying how many '<blah>' there are, where they can shoot, or whether it's DPS or whatever.

You can compare dps of Dunnov to egg, and any conclusion you get will be worth nothing.  Simply comparing DPS is sily to me.

Comparing DPS is like comparing "unit" size. For some men it matters. It really really matters.

I'm not fond of the Antorak myself because I tend to play at the macro level, but a micro intensive player can do some really naughty things with one.  It is very handy when you want to get away or bypass a PJI, but the flip side of this is you can also chase very effectively.  You can also use Phase out Hull to interrupt a ship trying to make a phase jump so that when phase out hull wears off it has to restart the jump.  If someone is trying to retreat, you use it to slow down their capital so your fleet can catch up and then keep the capital from jumping.  You do some damage each time Phase Out Hull wears off and it starts trying to jump.  A high level Antorak with strong antimatter regen can use Phase Out Hull many, many times in a row, so you can kill an enemy capital ship this way by repeatedly breaking phasejump alignment.

It is also really good at keeping enemy caps tied up from using their special abilities in a fight.  Keep Phasing out an enemy Progen and watch an Advent Battleball crumble without shield regen.  Also pretty much the only thing Vasari has to stop Missile Barrage or Cleansing Brilliance.

You can phase out your own ships when they are being damaged to keep them alive a bit longer.  Obviously this is useless if your fleet is getting wiped, but it can situationally be used to keep your caps alive by preventing them from being targetted in fight that you are not losing.  (You know...when someone suicides 30 Illums / HC's to kill your capital ship.)

i agree 100% with who ever says DPS of a cap is not important, the only time cap ships DPS matter is if your peforming a missle barrage with your marza or suct down a planet with your egg. after the first couple minutes you dont even want to have your cap in the middle of the action cuz itll get killed by focus fire. the only capitol ship DPS considerations are abilities. imo abilites are the sole purpose of capitol ships. you can have a capitol ship with 100000 hp and shields and its garbage without the abilities

and sorry to through wrenches in this argument but what about upgs? tec has very cheap armor upgs so they get the survivability early on for example. and hp and dmg upg consiteration, and vasari shield miti bonus to phase missles? how about cap ship speeds, id give up all my caps DPS to get bonus speed and then ids say my cap is way better

marauder is grate ship just to have, its the second cap i build after egg if i play vas.

third whuld be carrier or another marauder...

DPS is important for combat cap ships like the Kol etc. 

The maruader should get a boost to Subversion. This ability should HALT construction at the enemy planet for the duration at level 3. Currently, it isn't in the same league as Embargo.

Subversion stacks, embargo no logner stacks.

But Subversion has a higher AM cost and is weaker.

The antourak has to have wet noodles and yo mama jokes if it is going to ignore PJIs and increase speed and acceleration.

I think the Vasari Capitals can be quite deadly when used as a team.  For example, marauder gravity distortion + evacuator gravity warhead is an enemy fleet killer.  Sure, not as brainless as the Marza "I WIN" button, but still, tons of fun.

Is nobody from the beta left?

Alright, if you think the Vasari are so poor now in a stand up fight, in beta, they were even poorer in such a fight.  I don't remember exact numbers, but the Vasari cost for cost (both in terms of resource cost and fleet upkeep cost) were the worst of all the races, by far, which the beta community cried out against.  So the devs buffed it.  At the time, yes, I thought the Vasari needed a buff, but they are fine now, because I never pit a Vasari fleet against an evenly matched, much less superior force, I have the TEC for that.  The Vasari are a decimated empire on the run, the devs never designed them to be good in a standup fight.  Vasari are all about guerilla warfare.  TEC were designed with a standup fight in mind.  It's not about combat prowess, it's about strategy.  The devs straight out said that the Vasari's advanced technology (lore wise) was not focused in a combat area.

And as far as racial balancing, I would imagine the other races would give an arm and a leg for the abillity to ignore phase lanes and warp their ships directly from one of their planets to an enemy planet (Kostura Cannon, and that Marauder that you say has such poor DPS).  Personally, if I could play as TEC, I would imagine I would pay twice the cost of the Marauder to have one with no DPS at all, just so I could race it to the enemy's homeworld and jump my fleet in.

This is not Starcraft, the Vasari are not protoss.  This is not Halo, the Vasari are not Covenant.  I could keep going, but I hope I've made my point. 

Sorry if it sounded condescending or rude, it was not intended to be.