look, there's nothing wrong with Vasari guns right now either in game or from a lore perspective. 

 

Vasari squadrons are great. Vasari Heavy Cruisers are great. Vasari Missile Frigates are great. 4 out of 5 Vasari capital ships have totally reasonable damage capabilities. its really just the Marauder that has AWFUL damage. 

 

you can argue that this is fine from a balance perspective. you might be right about that, though that's a bit on the subjective side. other support oriented cap ships (Revelation, Rapture, Dunov) seem to be a bit better at shooting and have abilities with a bit more offensive punch. to me, just seems a little out of whack. but thats just an opinion. its certainly not a pressing balance issue in the game. 

 

no idea where comparison to other video games comes from. your post, Advalary, is probably the first Protoss comparison i've ever actually seen made with regards to Vasari. seems like thats a whole tangent issue and i honestly have no idea what you're getting at with that statement. 

Personally I believe the Marauder was never meant for combat it is more for fleet support like the distort gravity and phase node but also for crippling your enemy while there is combat. I do agree that subversion is nothing like embargo but it really depends on the perspective. Lets say that you attack the enemy plannet which has a whole bunch of factories. He can replenish his forces easily but If you send a couple of marauders to subvert the planet while the rest of your fleet fights the enemy he is pretty much @$3%&1. If you use embargo, big whoop he just looses some money from the planet but the production is still the same and underway in which case you are @$3%&1. So it really depends on perspective. I hope I proved my point.

well actually embargo does slow production i believe...maybe i'm wrong...but sova vs. marauder, marauder is actually more useful.

I agree as obviously pointed out.

embargo is better in every way. it steals income, it slows ship and structure build time, and it traps trade vessels in the grav well. 

 

subversion only slows build time. the only thing it has going for it is that you can jump your marauder out of the system without ending the effect. 

I agree. The low DPS of Vasari cap ships is not that bad, but it seems a little unfair.

 

Whys should the maruader get weak guns just because it has decent abilities, when the other races' cap ships get both?

 

Actually its about both. Its about combat prowess AND strategy.

Lore wise, the Vasari ARE militaristic and their technology IS focused on combat eg. phase missiles.

I was trying to make a joke, sorry.

Anyway, if anybody should be crying foul on caps, it should be the Advent.  Fully teched phase missles on 60 bombers takes out their cap ships in 1 run.  Forget your shield regen, because it's useless.  Don't believe me?  I just proved it again last night.

 

 

 

 

 

 

/sarcasm

 

They WERE militeristic.  Then they got their asses handed to them by something and now they are trying to make due with what little they have left.  I guess if you consider guerillias militaristic then yes, they still are.  However, most guerilla forces tend to favor hit and run attacks, where they quickly hit a little bit at a time and then go back into hiding, rather than facing a conventional military force.  Again, I guess it is military strategy, and if you want to be literal, most any technology could be considered militaristic if used properly.  However, I wasn't being that literal.  Wheras the TEC and Advent technology is based more around dealing and taking damage, the Vasari's isn't about pure weapons, but about their ability to manuever their forces and run away when a superior force shows up.  One of their capitals (the egg) is even described to be a flying city, hardly a military ship.  (True the TEC ships are mostly retrofitted trade ships, but those ships are still designed NOW to kill things, whereas I doubt the space egg is really designed with an offensive purpose in mind, lorewise).

 

And as for the protoss reference, I was referring to the preconception most people have that in any game that has 3 factions, one has to be the spam more units than the enemy to win, one has to be use plenty of fairly strong units, and one has to be the one where one unit can take on multiple enemy units and come out on top, but whose units are more expensive.

i ever do wonder why there's a progenitor parked next to that capship factory that's building the type of capship you destroyed.

advent capships are actually quite expendable so long as you get them leveled up.

Every race has a civilian cap ship (Akkan, mother ship). Whats your point?

Lore wise, the Vasari might be running away, but they have been rebuilding their empire in Trader Space. They are still slavers and still an oppresive empire, hence the name of many of their upgrades. They emphasise on geurilla combat because they are outnumbered, but they are militarily superior to the TEC.

 

 

If they were superior, they wouldnt have had to fight an drawn out war like this. From a militaristic point of view, the TEC is in the better position. They do have an established infrastructure and organisation and their technology base, while crude, is holdung up to the more advanced technology bases the other factions employ.

The whole Laser/plasma/shield skipping missiles thing can only get you so far after all.

 

Yes, put 2 kodiak vs a crusader/enforcer and both the enforcer and crusader will win, but when it takes you 3 weeks to replace one of your shiny strong ships while the TEC replaces 2 lost kodiaks with 3 in 1 week, you will be hitting a brick wall at some point. In terms on Military might, the ability to recover from losses is as important as the ability to inflict losses upon your enemy. Just because you have a miniscule advantage in the tactical theater doesn't mean you're in a good position on a strategic scale. Essentialy that has happened now. The TEC stubbornly refused to bail over and die an now the advent and Vasari are facing the entrenched hoomans.

The advent needs time to reorganize and stabilize its gains, while the vasari are in a rather devlish dilemma:

Stay to fight and hope to get enough out of it to make up for the investment or continue with the whole running part, because the clock is ticking. (thats also why they do not build an empire. they EXPLOIT the region then leave it once its stripped of all valuables, or at least try to.)

The whole guerilia shit doesn't fly properly when YOU are the attacker and be facing a wall around every important thing.

 

 

Ok, so say you're from the future with a powerful laser rifle, and you go to a planet full of modern technology (ballistic weapons etc) and start shooting. There's one of you, and a good laser rifle, but you're fighting millions of soldiers. Even if their weapons are inferior, they will still kill you.

The Vasari are a remnant of a remnant of what they once were. Their empire crumbled as they fled the disaster that they created, and they didn't have the sheer numbers required to support the war effort, hence the drawn out stalemate. Their technology is vastly superior, in all aspects, which means that even though lore-wise, they weren't very combat focused, their technology had eliminated obsolete and inferior technologies long ago.

As to the point made about Vasari being "obviously militaristic" because of stuff like phase missiles, the superior phase tech of Vasari isn't made for combat, it was just incorporated into some aspects of combat to meet the enemy threat of the TEC and Advent

Way to Necro Xarteros. This thread is a bit out of date.

the vasari just cheat with abilities so they may as well remove all weapons on their caps.

Whoa......starting an argument up again after it's been dead for THREE YEARS? No necrophilia in the forums.