Why 'competitive' and/or 'pro' scene do not exist in this game.

Published on March 14, 2012 By kwm1800 In Strategy

Yes, maybe not fitting on this category, but I have to say what is right.

Unless people stop playing random maps and start playing pre-made maps, there isn't a single person who are deserved to be called as 'pro' in this game. Indeed there are people who are (very) good at this game, but none of them are, by definition, are pros.

Ask any 'pro' players outside of this game, or heck any semi-decent players from highly competitive games like Dota, HoN or any MOBA games and ask them whether 'random' has place in competitive scene. Ask FPS players such as CS 1.6, CSS and COD2/4 players.

There is a reason why chance-based heroes and items are seldom picked in MOBA games.

There is a reason why popular promods for COD series eliminated random deviation of the gun spread.

There is a reason why CS:GO is getting slammed due to gun recoil from CS players.

The only meaningful benefit of randomly generated map is that it creates 'interesting' situations and you won't be ever get bored by playing maps. But 'interesting' is not equal to 'competitive'.

And it is not like that people got bored of pre-made maps. The fact is that bloody no one even tried to play these maps, saying 'the maps suck', 'not for pro'.

How the hell you know if you have not even tried such maps in the first place?

I stopped playing online 3 years ago, and recently Rebellion re-fired my interested in online gaming. Nothing has been changed. Even basic strategy like openings have not been created/refined thanks to randomness of the map we are playing.

The saddest part is that vast majority of people will miss some of the most interesting and well-made premade maps, such as...

Implosion

Twin Empires

Gateway

Entanglement

Blindside

Backstab

Razor's Edge

And other maps I forgot to mention or do not know.

Sometimes I try to host with these maps, and all I have gotten are insults and whines. For 3 years I see nothing is changed...... We should stop using the word 'pro' for this game, since it is such harsh insults and embarrassing self-claiming for real professionals from other games.

Comments (Page 4)

Oddski_Boddski

on Apr 10, 2012

I'd just like to note something.

There are different types, and levels of "pro." Someone who plays on a single Starcraft map and knows all the ins and outs of that map is a pro on that map. Someone who develops an effective strategy for playing on randomly created maps is a pro as well. And the person who plays solely on that one map may beat that person with the strategy for random maps.

But there are more maps than that one map. So the person with the strategy for random maps will have an advantage on any one of those other maps. So he can be pro as well on any of these other maps, when compared to the people skilled on one map only. Both of these different people are "pros", but different types of pros.

IMHO, the one who developed the strategy for random maps is more skilled in my opinion, simply because he/she is more adaptable, and can put up a good fight regardless. But that's just my opinion.

sareth01

on Apr 11, 2012

and oddski gets a +1 karma

MayallCommunion

on Apr 11, 2012

sareth01

reply 7

actually having a random element adds something to professional play. Being able to adapt and overcome to situations that occur at the start is a way to ensure that there are more then one paths to victory, and makes for more exciting gameplay overall.

This forces good TEAMWORK to overcome the opponents. Some games are frakked at the beginning, its true. Yet at the same time, watching players overcome adversity is every bit a "professional" talent. Whether that adversity is inherent in a map design or not.

I would say that professionals who play on random maps allow for a greater risk of losing, a greater risk of their pride being hurt. I would say this breeds the kind of professional a person wants to see in a game.

Why? because these professionals become able to use teamwork to overcome their positional start.

Its much like the differences between American football and football.

In american football the team is designed to ensure that one guy gets the ball and runs it down the field. One hero and everyone else supports that hero.

In football everyone must be strong, everyone must think together, and everyone must play as a team and adapt to situations as they occur (in American football you get rest breaks...lol). Everyone gets the ball in football.

In American football you need genetic freaks to play, in football almost anyone with enough dedication and a certain level of natural skill can hope to play professionally.

Its no small wonder why football is the world sport, while American football is a national sport.

There are many games that are played by "pros" that don't allow for complex levels of teamwork. I enjoy sins because it allows me to sacrifice my homeworld to do far more damage to the opposing team (much like chess).

My god this post is wrong in so many ways. Being random forces you to adapt to a situation where you were put into a worse one then your opponent. Which being weighed even with skill you are still behind. Because if he has +25% ore/crystal extractor. It does not matter if you are skilled or not he is still ahead of you. There is no adapting to that.

This does not force good team work, it forces you to work against an unfair advantage because the enemy got bill gates as their eco. Professionals should not play on random maps. And don't get me started on that analogy Serath ...

But I DO understand what you are saying about having randomness as a way to uh make it exciting

OddskiBoddski

reply 46

I'd just like to note something.

There are different types, and levels of "pro." Someone who plays on a single Starcraft map and knows all the ins and outs of that map is a pro on that map. Someone who develops an effective strategy for playing on randomly created maps is a pro as well. And the person who plays solely on that one map may beat that person with the strategy for random maps.

But there are more maps than that one map. So the person with the strategy for random maps will have an advantage on any one of those other maps. So he can be pro as well on any of these other maps, when compared to the people skilled on one map only. Both of these different people are "pros", but different types of pros.

IMHO, the one who developed the strategy for random maps is more skilled in my opinion, simply because he/she is more adaptable, and can put up a good fight regardless. But that's just my opinion.

Correction, their are two kinds of pro's competitive pro's which are ones that support balanced maps. And regular pro's.

Draakjacht

on Apr 11, 2012

Find me a country featuring radial symmetry where conflicting forces are required to start on the exact opposite ends.

MayallCommunion

on Apr 11, 2012

Draakjacht

reply 49

Find me a country featuring radial symmetry where conflicting forces are required to start on the exact opposite ends.

Thats a country, this is a video game. At least if that was referred to me.

Seleuceia

on Apr 11, 2012

Hunger Games

sareth01

on Apr 11, 2012

Draakjacht

reply 49

Find me a country featuring radial symmetry where conflicting forces are required to start on the exact opposite ends.

This question doesn't make sense.

You could say that the US vs. Japan in WW2 was somewhat similar if i was to make assumptions about the perameters of your question. Sins is far different then this confrontation was. Comparing countries to planets in a tactical sense in an effort to convey similarities demonstrates a poor understanding of their differences.

Oddski_Boddski

on Apr 11, 2012

Correction, I believe that there can be multiple types of "pro" Tis not a black and white thing.

Seleuceia

on Apr 11, 2012

sareth01

reply 52

Comparing countries to planets in a tactical sense in an effort to convey similarities demonstrates a poor understanding of their differences.

I think you are missing the point...

Draakjacht

on Apr 12, 2012

I dunno, even if you took a freeze frame of our solar system it wouldn't be a very balanced map. That's life.

Grubnessul

on Apr 12, 2012

Come to think of it, I'm actually happy there is no 'pro scene' as StarCraft has as SCII has been straightjacketed very much to suite this and is far from as innovative as it could be.

Draakjacht

on Apr 12, 2012

As for ladder purposes, I agree with Grubnessul that it would become a stale, elitist system that would have people going in knowing who should come out on top. It would dissuade new players from trying the ladder.

MayallCommunion

on Apr 12, 2012

Grubnessul

reply 56

I'm not sure why 'pros' require pre-made maps. If you're pro at all, you can adapt to the random maps. Radically symetric maps are boring, ugly, remove the need to scout and adapt to your environment. More importantly, they remove every suspension of disbelieve.

Come to think of it, I'm actually happy there is no 'pro scene' as StarCraft has as SCII has been straightjacketed very much to suite this and is far from as innovative as it could be.

Its because if they are not symmetrical they are not balanced. There is nothing pro about getting stomped by someone because they just so happened to have a bill gates economy and had less militia on their planets. And the point of scouting has nothing to do with finding your opponent, it has to do with analyzing their fleet composition and tech path. It has nothing to do with finding your opponent at all unless it is on a 4v4 or above map which then you will have to scout out your opponent.

You dont adapt to your opponent getting a better eco then you. Or having an unfair advantage, your guys definition of pro are very skewed. It all comes down to you will not have a competitive scene if maps are not balanced, that is just how it is not matter how much arguing and debating we do. No matter what you think constitutes a pro, there will be not competitive scene if it is not balanced.

Draakjacht

reply 57

I know people can't watch it live, but we do have recorded replays. If people would just take those and upload them, sharing them with the community, people can watch and, despite someone starting in an inferior position, be able to judge how 'pro' they are from what they do with what they have. Robert E. Lee was considered a great commander although he had dick to work with and ultimately lost. Even men of his time, such as Grant, saw that.

As for ladder purposes, I agree with Grubnessul that it would become a stale, elitist system that would have people going in knowing who should come out on top. It would dissuade new players from trying the ladder.

Draakjacht you need to stop comparing persons in real life to a video game it is different dude :/

Draakjacht

on Apr 12, 2012

Well, I did also suggest people actually use their noggins when observing battles, but if you want to go the mindless route of counting wins and losses, then just ask the devs for perfectly symmetrical maps to add to the current variety. I'm sure they can make it happen. Then the few that care can go and find out who's the 'best'.

MayallCommunion

on Apr 12, 2012

Draakjacht

reply 59

Alot of the premade maps are symmetrical as far as I know all of them are, the problem is militia count, unfair advantage by planet upgrades, and extractor count. Just because you started on a harder part of the map then your opponent does not mean you are using your noggin.

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